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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
I surely do not know where you mustered your figures from. Would like to read them, I have shelves of civil War books here and I can not find your statistics.
The South provided much of the Raw Materials for the Industrial North. The South consumed what was made in the North, both depended heavily on the other.
Your percent of slaves doesn't mean a one on one TRUE ownership. Some Plantation owners or Dock owners near New Orleans may have owned hundreds. Are you aware of the term "White Trash"? They too were counted as slaves, yet they were very White. They made deals to come here and work under the same script as Blacks. The Blacks were treated far better than the White scripts or slaves, for the owners knew at the end of the term, the Black could get a cabin, 4 acres of land and never become a competitor but rather stay and work as a FREE SLAVE or a RELEASED FROM SCRIPT. All the owners knew the Blacks could NOT make it on their own, so it wasn't uncommon for the Blacks who had fullfilled their SCRIPTS to stay and continue to work. The Whites on the other hand, were usually worked to the death, starved and whatever possiblly to ensure they did NOT make it to the end of the contract to become Competition. They were referred to in some parts as Clay eaters, because they did indeed eat clay to stay alive. Today we use the term to describe the lowest of the Whites and the term is from a brutal past.
Anyhow if you have 100,000 Slaves and 100,000 people it DOES NOT mean that there is One Owner Per Slave as you so duly implied. Florida was a Confederate State and Missouri was a Slave State. Slave was a word that did NOT always mean what many precieve it to be. Back then many many were needed to harvest the crops on the large fields and they were referred to as field Hands in the 1860s. The South also controlled the Mississippi for anything that was to be shipped from the inner North, went down the Mississippi and to the Gulf Ports. The railroads changed all that later and the Chinese who worked the railroads were also referred to as Slaves in the counts. Slaves encompass many and not always were they in chains and being whipped. "Approximately one-fourth of the region's Whites owned slaves OR WERE IN A FAMILY that had slaves working for them. Owning over half of the slaves, about 45,000 planters controlled the government and economy of the southern states." This says something entirely different from your numbers. To be counted in the figure, I need only be a member of a family not have knowledge of slaves. 45,000 planters owned one half of all of the slaves. Economics was a big role, for the Large Slave Owners had Power and in a growing Congress that made a difference. Loyalties to the buyers had presence over Loyalty to your country. The South Exported as well. What countries helped the South in the civil War and why? More info for you "Most plantations were owner-operated and the planters themselves often worked in the fields. Of the total southern white population of 8,099,760 in 1860, only 384,000 owned slaves. Of these, 10,780 owned fifty or more. It was calculated that about 88 per cent of America's slave-owners owned twenty slaves or less.
The death-rate amongst slaves was high. To replace their losses, plantation owners encouraged the slaves to have children. Child-bearing started around the age of thirteen, and by twenty the women slaves would be expected to have four or five children. To encourage child-bearing some population owners promised women slaves their freedom after they had produced fifteen children.
The wealth of the South was concentrated in the hands of around a thousand families. These large landowners would usually own well over 100 slaves and relied heavily on overseers to run their plantations. In 1850 it was estimated that these thousand families had an income of about $50,000,000 while the remaining 660,000 families received only $60,000,000." http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASownership.htm
So the actions are really of the NOT SO MANY in the South and as far as the boys who died on the battlefield, I will still say 90 plus percent, did not own one and DID die for other reasons. Why? look at todays military. There are 300 million people in this country and about 1 million currently in uniform. Of the 1 million in uniform in any given year, only 150,000 are in harm's way. So 150,000 out of 300 million, I do NOT think for a minute that the FIGHTING BOYS are from Properpous families, meaning families that would be able to have Plantations or Slaves. Now make the country even MORE rural than now, elimate Railroads, Highways most forms of Commo and you will begin to understand my point. Regardless of how many people in the South owned slaves, the ones doing the dying did NOT.
The Confederate Battle Flag was indeed a Battle Flag an then there was the State Flags, the Divisional Flags, the Regimental Flags, the company Flags and then Banners etc. The State Flags flew with the Confederate Flag. Your point about the nazi Flag, pathetic. I am talking aout the Americans who died on American soil by fellow Americans. As far as I am concerned to address your point, I have NO PROBLEMs with the German Flag or Nazi Flag. I have a problem with Hitler, Goebbels, Henrich and so many others. The people are the problems, not the flags. Rommel served under the same flag and to any Good American Soldier, he is a man to be admired. Did he share Hitler's vision? No! as many did not. They were soldiers following orders. The Nazi Flag was destroyed by germany so they would not be reminded of the mistakes they made. The SS is a far more ruthless symbol.
I know you will argue with me about the symbol of a Flag, so does that mean you support Flag Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the Flag is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The Flag to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the flag and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whaever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in a flag.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Earth
It is an EXCUSE and most have no idea what they are impying, they just find it COOL to be hateful of the North. Rebel has a ring to it, Yankee does NOT.
I hear every day with the Democrats and the Republicans. Most have no clue why they hate President Bush only that he is a Republican and therefore he has to be hated.
The people who act that way are puppets, controlled by a frenzy and no brain cells to allow them to think for themselves or to even try reasoning.
Street gangs, another example. they kill over colors or symbols or hoods. They do not know the other guys, never tried to go over and have dinner with them, play some ball, nope! got to be Kool got to pack some ice and kill them.
These people were not around for the 1860s have no clue of the entire picture, their feeble little minds say it is about Slavery and the North wants to take our blackies away. Damn. talk about lack of brain cells. do you really beleive for an instant that the idiot who gave you the reply had enough intelligence to explain the Civil War to you? or count to 100?
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Mississippi - state of mind
Earth
No! during the civil War the men who wore Blue were Yankees or Northerners, the Southerners were Confederates or Rebels.
During the Revolution we Colonists, Minutemen, Militia or just pissed off farmers.
You made some excellent points.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
"My data was from the US census of 1860. Major numbers are from the census directly. The percentage of families with slaves comes from the individual town records. If you go thought the individual census records you have the owner and the number and names of the slaves owned. I did not do this directly but got numbers from someone that did."
Your friend went through the Individual census records and added them all up????? That is alot of twons to do. I printed the 1860 census and the number of slaves and how many owned them. Here it is again 'Of the total southern white population of 8,099,760 in 1860, only 384,000 owned slaves. Of these, 10,780 owned fifty or more. It was calculated that about 88 per cent of America's slave-owners owned twenty slaves or less."
My Lord! My God has forbidden me to look at my Country's flag as Sacred? Peters, you are taking the Bible a wee bit too far. I am not worshipping the Flag, I look at the flag as I do a Headstone in a cementary. The Flag has no Net worth as would a Painting or a Piece of gold, it's total networth is how it is precieved by the person looking at it. I value the flag not because I have led a charge and watched men fall before me trying to keep it flying, but because I have read of so many others who have. I know what Francis Scott Key felt when he looked over the Fort through sulpher filled air and with the noises of battle. I know what the Marines feel when they lay a flag over the coffin of a fellow Marine. My mom had a Military Funeral and I still have her flag. You are telling me God views all this as wrong? come on, be serious.
Allow me to correct you, there were Slaves in Europe long before there was a New land. You should do some reading about your hero Christopher Columbus, he cut the front of the feet off of the Indians so they could not run away. He brought back many to serve as slaves. He murdered countless thousands. You should also find out what ever happened to Poconatas. Italy used conquered people to serve them, Gladiators were slaves selected to fight and they could earn their freedom if they were lucky. Sorry Peters, slaves have been everywhere for many centuries. Those Slave traders you speak of bought their slaves from Black Africans. Blacks raided and captured the Blacks who would be sold.
You seem to waste a lot of THIS life with the Promise that you are going to have more in the after ife. What is a Good Christian suppose to do, just run around preaching about the NEXT life and wasting the current one? What happens when you die and find out that the NEXT life is just one of many more, will you waste the next one as well preaching about the next one to come. I think God wants you to enjoy what has been given to you and use what has been given to you and be good and not evil. Looking at a Flag as sacred is NOT evil.
It sounds like to me you have been looking for that Dream Land. People have flaws, it was built into them by your God. Kids have certain areas of the playground etc. I have lived in the N.E. for a good share of my life and I never was hated in another town, nor was I ever asked what town I was from when I went shopping etc. If I struke up a conversation the question may have come up, but I never got less service or whatever. Heaven is going to have these same people there. hey! what Ice Cream do you prefer? What Team do you like better? come on, everyone is predjudice, some openly admit it and others do not.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis
To show RESPECT to our flag is not worshiping the flag. No one is putting the flag in place of God. I do not understand where you mean it would be idolatry. To tell people they can NOT piss on it, shit on it, or use it as Art or whatever is NOT worshipping it. People who have served the flag and for those who have it flying on their Headstones, it is just asking for RESPECT FOR IT. To me that RESPECT goes for ANY flag used by Americans and includes the Flag of the South. If Americans died for it, it should be RESPECTED and NOT used to feed an ego of some Political agenda or Racial cause. I think PATRIOTISM is a better word than IDOLATRY.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
I never gave reference to the Number of Slaves only the number of Slave Owners and that was the topic. You challenged my point about 99.9% of the soldiers dying did not own slaves, didn't know what a slve was etc. You said that 46% of the families owned slaves and I refutted that with facts from the 1860 cencus of the South.
I have no idea how many slaves there were I do know many stayed as slaves even after they had letters of freedom in their possesions. So not all slaves were unhappy or being brutalized. Many were, I do not argue that, we have employees who are treated the same way in sweat shops, so you don't have to be a slave to be mistreated. The point was about who was doing the dying and I stand by my figures that 99.9% of the soldiers who were doing the dying did not own one.
You may live in Mississippi but I do not think you can speak for them any more than I can for Vermonters. Politicians think they can, but seem to respond to those who lobby with the most money and then claim they heard their constiguents speak.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
Flag burning is NOT protected under the 1st Amendment any more than yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater would be protected under the 1st or Saying "BOMB" on board a crowded commercial airliner.
I agree with you somewhat about Porn, but as a Bible man, why is Making Love deemed as indecent and killing is selling like crazy in theaters? Why is the human body deemed indecent and yet it is created by God? I fully agree with Killing Child Molesters and Rapists, but have we not created the immense curiosity by making nudity so taboo? Do the African tribes who run naked have the same crimes as a clothed society does? Are Nudist Colonies evil? Why is it a Sin to look at a woman with Lust, I do even when she has all her clothes on. Smile..
There is some Porn that should stay Porn but much is not. In New York State now a woman can be Topless in public and it is not Indecent Exposure. Breast feeding in Public is no more Taboo than a Hug. It is how it is precieved by the people who have their noses stuck too high in the air. I came into this world Naked and maybe the delivery rooms should be classified as PORN, I mean there my wife was, legs spread and people gathered all around. Ah! but it is said it was for Medicine and therefore OK. If Raedon comes from our homes what comes from our clothing? Am I being ridiculous, yup! to prove a point that we are a bit too carried away I am. Nakedness is NOT porn. Just my opinion. God created woman and did a right fine job and he gave me eyes so I could appreciate his work.
Oh! and Bible passages are easily refuted, don't forget the Bible was written over a period of 1600 years and by 90 authors, so you can guarantee me there is NO exaggerations or bad intel? Don't get me wrong, I beleive in God , I just don't trust anything that man says.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis
Sorry about the confusion who I was responding to.
you made a good point but I feel I must challenge it.
Flag Burning is said to be protected under the Freedom Of Speech Amendment or Amendment 1, no where in that Amendment does it state that Freedom is revoked if it causes panic which causes harm. That has been assumed and accepted. It only says "abridging the freedom of speech" I agree that yelling FIRE in a crowded theater may cause Physical Harm, but isn't mental anguish or Mental harm equal and therefore disrespect to the American Flag by fellow Americans should be disallowed? If you are going to give EXCEPTION to the 1st Amendment based on precieved Physical Harm then why not Mental Harm as well. Now SLANDER causes No physical Harm (it may but more often than not, it doesn't) and yet you may go to Court and be sentenced for Slander, Assault (not Assault and Battery but just Assault), deflamation of character etc etc. Now where is the limitations of the Freedom of Speech for these actions written? surly not in the Consitution but in Federal and State laws, so does the State and Feds have a right to change the protection of the Constitution without ratifing a Bill and making an Amendment? ah! so we really could do the same for the Flag, we just rather hide behind the Freedom of Speech Amendment and hope anyone who wants passage just gives up, more of that Tolerance stuff.
Really denis, be honest, does it really bother you MORE to have a Flag Disecretation Amendment than it does me not having one? So you are (meaning everyone who is against, how about a people vote) telling me and all Veterans who have served the Flag (I believe you are a Veteran too) and for those who are buried beneath the flag ex: U.S.S. Arizonia or died carrying the flag into combat, or raised the flag on Mount Surabachi, or San Juan Hill, or Shilo, Gettysburg, Or any of the hundreds of battles or have it as an arm patch to represent WHO they are, don't matter? Do you put your hand over your heart when the flag goes by? why? Do you stand up, face the flag and put your hand over your heart when the National Anthem is played? why? Do you mean it when you look at the Flag and Pledge Alligiance? why? If you said YES! then what is wrong having everyone either RESPECT IT or ignore it but DO NOT DISRESPECT IT. Having an Amendment to Respect the flag does not mean you have to change any of your NO answers to YES (unless I am standing beside you j/k)it merely means that the Veteran and many other GOOD People of this country find a need to keep the flag with dignity and repsect and to piss on it, burn it or shit on it is a real SLAP in the face for those who look at the flag as all they have served for.
Come on Denis would the Flag Desecration Amendment keep you awake at night because you Honestly would look at it as imposing on YOUR Freedom of Speech rights?
My body is on loan? don't you mean my SOUL? My body stays here it is my VEHICLE. My Soul is what will be judged. you said "Sacred things, like procreation, are not to be paraded in public. Societies that do so degenerate and cease to exist." What makes procreation sacred? a concept can be sacred but not a flag? I am confused. Will ALL naked Africans go to Hell? Doesn't this go back to what I said months ago, "it is only a sin if you believe it to be a sin and do it"? Doesn't one of the Ten Commandments say "Love thy neighbor" kinda like the Second Amendment now isn't it, depends who reads it will determine what is meant by it. J/K Now! with Viagra and four hour erections, wow! alot of neighbors can be loved, start knocking on them doors. I don't think God would think that if I hugged my wife while we were at a nudist colony, I was evil. Adam and Eve were both Naked in the current public. I would think too, that if Adam and Eve only had to TWO sons, Cain and Able, then incest probably played a role in kick starting the Human Race. So Denis, the Bible is a tool, it is a guide and people need to read it and learn and not become parakeets or puppets. Seek to do good and you will be rewarded but seek to be bad and be punished. Pictures of Making Love is evil and pictures making war is good and earn Pultzer Prizes? I am sooooo confused.
Denis and Peters
My goal is NOT to discredit God but to discredit what man says about God.
question
"Can God create a Rock that he can not lift?"
If he CAN NOT create a Rock he can NOT lift, then he is NOT ALMIGHTY.
If he CAN create a Rock he can NOT lift, then he is NOT ALL POWERFUL.
God! I am sure is the creator of Heaven and Earth, man is the creator of Hollywood.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Earth
Simply OUTSTANDING, well said and not mean Spirited in any way, raw and very to the point. Good job.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis
"Mental anguish" is difficult to measure and prove. It's also very subjective. I, for instance, experience mental anguish, whenever I hear a liberal open his or her mouth."
 , Ditto..... So can we outlaw Liberals?????
Now them African Bushmen put gourds on themselves and prance around with this silly looking Gourd on their, well theirs. The Young males in some tribes have a BIG ceremony where they are circumzied in PUBLIC. Girls have a ceremony where they go thru Nude, processes as well. The people doing the ceremonies don't look at what they are doing as Bad, so in God's Eye I am sure it isn't.
I fully understand your point of view and you are entitled to it. Allow me to take it a step further. Would not muscle building and then showing off the body in competitions and shows not be the same exploitation as you refer to? Why is showing a couple making love evil? in what way? Yes! I understand there is Porn that takes it way beyond normalcy but there are Shows on TV that do the same for the violence end of it, such as Terminatior, Aliens and most Prime time Shows. Are we committing sins just entertaining ourselves with programing? We are able to watch EXTREMES on the violence side and anything to show the Love side is deemed Bad taste or Porn.
I am not presenting my arguement well, I know in my mind what I am thinking but am having a difficult time putting it all in words.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
I didn't say I could not find the 1860 Census, I said I could NOT find YOUR figures and your percentages that you were quoting from the 1860 census. I posted the total SLAVE OWNERs and it is not important how many slaves there were, we were talking about OWNERS and that I posted., TWICE.
I agree with you on Bakker, Roberts, Swaggert and the rest of the PTO or Make Me Money from your Stupidty Group.
I do not care to compare notes though on the merits of Christ.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
You Dance a good Dance.
Yes! I did say "For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery." your point??
Only 93,000 Southern Confederate Soldiers died in Combat. 93,000 out of strength of just over a million one hundred, that is just under 9% Killed IN COMBAT. Those 93,000 came from all over the South and NOT just Mississippi.
You got your 394,000 because you added states that were NOT apart of the Confederacy but stopped Slave owning with the election of Lincoln. Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri had Slaves but were not part of the Confederate States.
http://www.civil-war.net/searchofficialrecords.asp?searchofficialrecords=McClellan%20Antietam Great site to get numbers from. Has all of the 1860 Census info.
Looking at the numbers per state I added ONLY the Confederate State population and got 9,083,000 including Slaves, I added all the Families for there was a distinct number for Families and I got 1,555,262, it doesn't say if it included Slave families or not. There were 316,413 Slave Owners in the whole of the Confederacy. Now if you look at the Total Population for the Confederacy and the total KIA you have 1%, back off the Slaves from the population and you will still have UNDER 2% of the total population KIA'd. I will continue to say the majority of the Confederate KIAs did NOT own slaves.
To say that the 2% killed, came from the Non Slave owning families would be possible considering who serves and who does not. Who was educated and who was not. etc.
There is a flaw in that web site and I am sure that is the site you retrieved your info from. The flaw? read slowly.
For Mississippi it says there were 63015 Total Families
then it says there were 30,943 Slave Owners and right below that it says Total Familes that owned Slaves 49%. WRONG! The site is comparing Slave Owners to Families and then declaring the answer gives a total percentage of Families that own slaves. Wrong! It assumes there can be no more than ONE SLAVE OWNER per Family and that is pure hogwash. You could have 3 brothers and a Father from the Same family own slaves and be apart of the Total Number of Owners and yet be only a part of a single family. The data in the Premises is correct but the Conclusion is FALSE. Total number of Families owning slaves IS NOT 49%, the RATIO of SLAVE OWNER to FAMILY is. You would have to have a poll of each family that owned slaves. I have no doubt as I said earlier from another site, that there were some Owners who owned 100s of slaves. The Large Cotton Fields needed labor for the job, the Combine had not been invented yet. Families and their cousins could have owned one Large Plantation and they would make up a substantial Slave Owning number but would be only ONE or Two Families. So even Census can sum up false info.
My whole point was to preserve the Southern Flag because I do not believe it represents Slavery as much as it does SACRIFICE, period.
Play with numbers all you want and challenge my 99% but the point was what the Flag stood for. Not how many slaves there were.
The Civil War was NOT about Slaves it was about Economics and the Wealthy Slave owners had the greatest influence and control as well as Political influence, that is what scared the industrialized North and in order to beat the Wealth, Power and Influence of the Slave owners, it was best done by abolishing the means that gave them the Wealth and Power and that was where Slavery stepped in. You could compare the Slave owners to Organized Crime bosses of the 20s and 30s. They basically spoke for everyone, so to speak, only because everyone else was too busy and had no idea what was going on.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
My Math is very simple and yours is messed up, your percentages in the first paragraph of your post are worthless and meaningless. You can NOT take the Total Number of families and devide by the number of slave holders and then claim a percent of families owned Slaves. Christ, learn basic math and logic would you. You are on a wild tangent and you are using a Faulty source. I have been to the web site and it is WRONG. The Total NUMBER of FAMILIES devided by the TOTAL NUMBER OF SLAVE OWNERS does NOT, I repeat DOES NOT GIVE YOU A PERCENT OF FAMILIES WHO OWN SLAVES. your source is hogwash, so quit quoting garbage. You are WRONG! You have NO idea what you are talking about and you are adding your own assumptions into False data taken from a web site that had a a WRONG conclusion as I pointed out to you.
Find yourself a third grade math teacher and have them explain to you in person. YOU ARE WRONG. end of discussion.
You also have no clue what soldiers talk about, NOW or 140 years ago.
The point you have gone so far from was when I said the Confederate Flag and the Mississippi Flag needs to be flown with Pride, not from owning Slaves, I made that clear. But from sacrifice and call of duty. You preach your faith and how you devote your life to it. Same with a FLAG. I don't care if you don't put any value in the flag because you think the Bible forbids it, good for you. You do not control my thoughts and it is clear to see you act like a Parakeet, it doesn't matter if your sources have wrong information, you don't understand what you read, so you quote it as truth. Once again, I will say it again slowly.
YOU CAN NOT TAKE THE TOTAL FAMILIES, DEVIDE BY THE TOTAL OF SLAVE OWNERS AND COME UP WITH THE PERCENT OF FAMILIES WHO OWNED SLAVES. IMPOSSIBLE. G.I.G.O. Which stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Find another subject you have done poorly here.
Many people will abuse any flag. regardless, that does not mean it should not be respected by those of us who are above the those standards. I have seen the U.S. flag, burned, trampled, pissed on, shit on, and dragged down the streets. I am above them and they are my enemies for they put evil above good and preach that the flag is a symbol of murder and evil. Their ignorance does not justify disrespect for any flag that a decent man has died for, period. I bet you have never asked one of those pick up truck owners why they have the flag have you? My brother lives in Normandy Tenn and he flies it and it is on his pick up and he flies it for Southern Pride and he doesn't own a slave, never has, came from the North, will talk and drink a beer with a Black man any day of the week. I for one beleive very strongly, that you have Niggers and you have Blacks and you have Honkies and you have Whites. I do not associate myself with the trash or the honkies or the niggers, I prefer to associate with the Whites and the Blacks. Is Pride something you rather call by every other name than Pride? You assume every pick up with the Rebel Flag flies it because he wants to own a slave? You see Slavery in the Rebel Flag, maybe Peters is the one with Tunnel Vision and refuse to see what it really means. I can see you become easily obsessed with a thought as you did with WRONG information here, maybe you have other wrong information as well and you think the rebel Flag is an Insult. My ancestors served with the Vermont Volunteers and we are buried on many battlefield. My family has fought from the Revolution right up to Iraq. Myself and every brother has served. I support the War in Iraq because I believe 24 million Iraqiis have a right to basic human life, without having to live in Fear or oppression. Do I sound like a Slave Supporter? I hold Flags in very high order and I do not support slavery in the least bit and yet I have the greatest respect for the southern soldier and their flag. Why Peters, why would a Yankee support the South/ BECAUSE it has NOTHING to do with SLAVERY, but Honor, Pride, Devotion, Sacrifice, Courage, Love, Respect.
You claim to know what a soldier was thinking. Maybe slaves were mentioned in the early days, by a very few, of the suspected one week war. But when that week turned into months and years and New soldiers came and died, they did not have SLAVES on their lips. When they pulled the trigger and felled a man in Blue it wasn't for the thought they would own a slave if they killed enough Yankees. Slavery Peters, was an excuse and maybe even the Heart but not the reason. When the Southern boy returned home after the war with a leg or an arm missing, I doubt the bar talk was "Damn I can't own any slaves now"
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
I am afraid it is YOU who does not know what they are talking about. The rules of the Head of household did not come into play until after 1913 with adoption of the Federal Income Tax Amendment. More than one member of a family could very easily own a slave and be counted as seperate Slave owners. Sorry Peters, you numbers are full of holes one BIG one when you try to devide number of families by number of SINGLE slave owners and come up with a Percent of Families who own slaves. It is a drastic assumption with no merit for fact.
It really doesn't matter who is head of household etc, we are talking 1860 and for all you know the Slave owner could be a slave owner in several states. Most Cotton fields cross state lines without prejudice. Even today that is true.
No one has used your name or God's name in vain, there you go making up stuff again. Where was I asking for Special Treatment? You make shit up as you go along and you believe your own B.S. Good God Peters, I made statements and I really don't care what you think. You started this whole thread for posts I had in another thread so end your B.S. and your Holy God crap. You are very predujiced for a self-proclaimed religous person and you assume way too much and you put people in catagories because they have a flag decal on their pick up or they fly a pecticular flag.
I have No Doubt you are one of those people who think the war in Iraq is over OIL. The Civil War was about Economics and who controlled the raw goods needed by a growing nation. Yes! slavery was used to harvest, that is the only reason why Slavery was sought to be abolished, because abolishing slavery took power away from the Wealthy few who owned hundreds and control a huge chunk of the Raw Materials.
Unless your major was the Civil War and you are a recognized source on the Civil War all of your thesis, patents and education is meaningless. Doctors are smart in their own field but are just as ignorant as the next guy in areas they are not educated in. I have read hundreds of pages of Civil War Diaries, been to dozens of battlefields, have read hundreds of books on the Civil War, I have done micro fiche research with the Harpers, Charleston and several other papers of the period, studied Military History, but you are right, you are an educated fool and know more than I do about the Civil War. You judge the 1860s with a mind buried in 2006, people back then were very uneducated only a select few could even write their names. Most people had their last names changed during the Civil War, because Paymasters would sound out the name or drop letters from it. The Press did the same thing and many had no idea how to really spell their own names. BUT you will tell me that they were able, with out computers or machines be able to tell if people were counted more than once, if they were owners in more that one state and had accurate counts and dealt with ONLY Head of households and only counted the same family once and no other census taker counted them again and so forth and so on and that if you devide the number of families by the number of slave owners you will get an accurate percent of families who owned slaves. That the Census Taker who rode a buggy or a Horse, actually did an Accurate count and rode to every house to check on the validity of the information he supposedly gathered. No short cuts, no lying, no made up numbers all 100% accurate because Peters wants it to be. Peters, your ignorance of the period is showing.
You claim to be better in Math and yet you have No idea about my credentials, you are assuming again. You have side stepped my point about the false conclusions drawn from the two base premises and they were 1. TOTAL NUMBER OF FAMILIES
2. TOTAL NUMBER OF SLAVE OWNERS and you insist that with those two numbers and ONLY those two numbers you can conclude the following PERCENT OF FAMILIES WHO OWNED SLAVES. For someone who claims to be so good in Math, you have stood by pure B.S., My best advice to you, go back and take Math and Logic over, you slept during the important part of class.
Good Day, and you are the Bible man and not me, so if I take the Lord's name in vain, which I haven't, it is of NO CONCERN of yours. You need to stick to a subject you think you know more about.
I would take one Marine over 1000 of you any day of the week. Marines are stupider than Cons? Really? where did you gain that conclusion from? My my Peters how arrogant you are. I never once implied any thing of the sort and I never implied I was better nor that I was looking for Special Treatment. You cried to Denis saying there was Nasme calling. MY MY how you lead the pack, Ignorant is not Name Calling, it is stating a fact when someone is not aware of the real information. Now you have flown your True flag and your posts will merit no worthiness by me. WoW! You avoided the Draft by sitting around with work crews.. Atta Boy, I used to use Prisoners as well to clear grass and the such around Ordinance bunkers. BIG DEAL. You jumped too! WoW! so didn't I, except I did it in the Marines. You put out fires? WOW! I mixed Napalm and started them. Used some W.P. as well and some good ole Det Cord. . Good Day Peters, I really don't care about you, you have proven to me, who you are. You claim that you can't learn History from Text books and then quote some Book. real piece of work you are. Now we are going to play playground games, and you assume you are more wise than I and because I am military I must be some stupid person, right? Ah yes! When a person starts degraded another with assumptions and then tries to spell out their merits with filled in B.S. it speaks volumns about the person. Yup! you did a fine job.
I have gone to name calling in other threads? really, Peters what other threads? give me the details. You made the accusations now back them up. Or are you all wind? Looking for a partner to agree with you and then you will feel you have won over me. childish and you claim to be educated and act like a school boy. a spoiled little school boy, crying to his teacher about billy. Want name calling, you read the posts and your last one was filled with insults aimed at me as well as this whole thread you started with your intital post trying to discredit me with your BULLSHIT. prove you wrong? I did over and over and I am through with you, you aren't worth any more of my time.  MAO you have been amusing and the sorry part is, you believe your won Bullshit.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
You sure toot you own horn alot and your PhD means jack shit when it comes to the Civil War, ZERO POINT Shit. Your PhD is only good for your major, I suppose you know how to do Surgery too because you have a friggin PHd? MAO give it up will you, you are making such an ass of yourself.
Look at you, you shove bible verse in people's faces and you set a real good example. I am suppose to believe anything you say? I do not. You have no credibility as far as I am concern, you defend your bullshit with ignorance and Soapboxing with credentials that if you really had them you would know the moron you are making of yourself. Any basic math person can see the flaws in your statement about percentage of families owning slaves and you show your arrogance by continuing to defend it. You talk the talk but sure don't walk the walk. I do not believe a word you say.
You mixed Napalm to start fires in the woods, really? how did you mix it with what and what percentage? What Explosives did you use? Come on be careful now, because your answer will tell me how much Bullshit you are throwing.
Oh wow! I am sorry, you LOOKED into Military Flight School, Oh! and you had a bad little knee so they didn't take you? Bullshit.
You had jobs that made a Marine in Vietnam look SAFE, Good God, you just keep going, there is no end to your bullshit. Damn.... I paid my way through College with the GI Bill, did 6 years and hardly paid a dime out of my own pocket, who is the fool now?
Kick Marines Asses, MAO, you sure can sling the shit. Sure you did, I bet you did. God, you aren't even a Bible Believer as you claim, you are nothing more than a WANNABE a DREAMER.
Good Bye.. you are way too much, I have my feet off the floor because it is getting so deep with every post you post. You best go back and reread the posts, you were the first to throw the mud. This whole Thread was started by you, was it not. Now doesn't the Bible say to turn the cheek? whatsa matter, your Love of God is Bullshit too? You do a lot of pretending is there anything REAL in your life????? I am done with you, I will not respond to any more of your arrogant posts. Knock yourslef out and go sling your Bullshit to someone who believes you, I do NOT.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Peters
I just could not ignore you last post of B.S. I promise I won't answer you again, after this. I am laughing so hard at you right now, though, it really hurts.
What U.S. Marine Base was ever in Vancover B.C. or even within 500 miles of Vancover B.C.? See that is what I mean, You knew I was talking about U.S. Marines and you are talkin about some kind of Marine whatever in Vancover. Here is your line of B.S. "Goading young marines in Vancouver into the first swing is not one of them. I started entering the bars at 16 and was never questioned." "Concerning marines, you are like most I have met, right when wrong, always prepared for a fight and never willing to back down. Very predictable. In high school we thought it was sport to go down to the city and kick marine ass so we could be carded, sent home and have the marine in irons and have to admit he was thumped by a 16 year old."
"You claim to have six years post secondary education. Did you finish anything? This came up before and you made some off handed statement. With the way you write I would need to see the degree to believe it. What school let you through?" I claimed???? I made a point. It came up before?? Well maybe, I don't answer your question because it isn't any of your business and I don't Soapbox like you do. With the way I write and you need to see my degrees? Not in this life, Buckwheat.
"WW: So where did you come up with an estimate of 1 % not knowing anything about slavery? " Where did I write 1% did not know anything about slavery? You not only can't read well, you are confused and can not even quote numbers that are printed in front of you. PhD my ass.
"I made the equivalent of 150,000 a year in today’s money and sent myself through a private school at ~26K/year in today’s money." What the Hell is that suppose to mean? You mean you made $30,000 Canadian, back when, and thru Inflation and thru the rise of the Canadian Dollar it is now equal to $150,000 TODAY's Money?? Now is that U..S. or Canadian? and Big Friggin Deal. No one cares if you went to a Private School, no one cares how much you made then or now. You must really be a wannabe to use Today's Money value to make people think you were really a BIG Deal.
"I also took marshal arts training and played hockey and rugby. Scrapping in the area I grew up was common place. With a bunch of loggers and fishermen it was a rough society. I lived in NE five years, just a few miles from Vermont, believe me it is a kinder gentler society." WOW! Now we are getting a Life History of a nutcase. You lived just a FEW miles from Vermont? Where and exactly how far is a FEW, I mean you are judging Vermont and yet you have NEVER been there. I grew up with Loggers and Farmers. Known many who have died in the Woods. Vermont was a BIG Logging State not too long ago. I guess you knew this, you only lived a FEW miles from Vermont for five years. MAO, Kinder, gentler.. you had it so bad, you poor little thing. Give me a break. How the Hell do you even get on your soapbox?
Here is a line from your whatever "Odds of being terminated in Vietnam were 2% for the 15 years of the war. I spent 4 years working in the woods or 4%, probably or higher if I consider the work and the number of times I was with in a hairs breadth of being killed and the higher risk work I did." Hate to break the news to you, Buckwheat, Vietnam was NOT 15 years. It was 1963 to 1975. Unless you are counting 50 American Advisors a WAR. Even then the War as you saw on the News didn't start until 65 or 66. How did you come up with these percentages of 2% and 4%. Are we including Wounded as well, or loss of limbs? Belly shots don't rate mention in your comparisions? . You were a hairs breadth away from Death? How do you measure that? How do you know you were ever near death if you didn't die?
"I was part of the first group to log with choppers in B.C. It was a learning proposition at this point and more dangerous than falling or High line work, which I had worked on previously." Now are you trying to imply for your Great Ego that you were a pilot or on the ground while the Choppers (what childish reference) flew overhead? were they 53s? or 46s? or were they Bells? Loaches? Cobras? Hueys? old 34s? what is a chopper in your reference? Peters you are way too funny. My gut hurts from laughing at you.
"I have no idea what ratios of benzene and polystyrene you were using for Napalm B. We used the old formula modified, diesel oil and natural rubber. We had a lighter on the end of the spigots and need it to flow deeper into the vegetation. We mounted them as drip torches under a chopper and used it on back backs. We used nitrates and diesel with a small stick of cut dynamite with the igniter. When you are blasting a lot of granite it pays to be cheap. " Back Backs??? Ours was mixed 45/35/20 or there abouts. we used Gasoline and NOT Diesel. We didn't want a quick poof, we wanted it to spread and burn, Hot, slower and cover larger areas, that was the job of the polystyrene. Ours were dropped in Cannisters, from aircraft. It sounds to me as you were using more of a piss poor Flame Thrower and used Diesel so you all wouldn't hurt yourselves. Interesting why you would have to mix Diesel with anything, seems it would have more of a tendancy to Gel and Jelly Napalm is worthless mostly when trying to push it through a nozzle. I am confused about Your OLD formula, the U.S. Military hasn't used it or made it in decades. So OLD meaning what? What is CUT DYNAMITE?
Here are some questions, see if you can answer them.
There are 10,000 Families
There are 4,000 Automobile Owners
What percentage of Familes have Automobiles?
Ok! try this one
There are 10,000 Families
There are 2,700 Home Owners
What Percentage of Familes Own Homes?
Maybe this one
There are 10,000 Families
There are 1,800 Dog Owners
What percentage of families own Dogs?
Ok, this one you already answered
There are 63015 Families
There are 30,943 Slave Owners
What percentage of families owned slaves?
I read your posts and find thm hilarious. I have never known anyone who loves to soabox as much as you and has such a WILD Imagination. Note, I have never said LIAR in any of my posts and yet you said "WW: Now you call me a liar. To what level won’t you stoop?" I will say, If the Shoe fits, wear it.
I swear this is my last post to you, I just couldn't help it. The Marine Part had me rolling, I thought you were referring to U.S. Marines and I could see this 16 year old popeye walking into a bar. MAO, turns out it wasn't U.S. Marines after all, but maybe Marine Animals.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis
Actually! I would say putting all of Our EGGS in the Fuel Oil Dependancy Basket is the STUPIDIST thing we have done or rather doing.
Oil prices have put this country on her knees. As China increases demand we will have to pay more as the Prices rise under pressures of the highest bidders.
Our Nuclear Research has been stagnant.
Our Solar Research has been stagnant.
Our Thermal Research has been stagnant.
Our Wind Research has been stagnant.
Our Tidal Research has been stagnant.
and so on and so on. The Pressure to Research and develope in other areas has been lax. Our dependancy for Oil is a real self inflicted dependancy. We create Oil Hungry implements for items that worked well and were good for us, such as Push Lawn mowers to Gas Mowers and tractors. Brooms to Gas powered blowers, Bikes to ATVs, Axes to chainsaws, Candles to Generators, there is No question these items may be needed on a large scale but for the regular home owner they are oil consuming Luxuries that many can no longer live without and they DEMAND the Government to protect their OIL CONSUMPTION.
Our depandancy is where we can be put onto our knees, by Oil Rich Terrorist countries. It may cost us millions of lives as a result of the New Tech Wars. At least Slavery allowed the country to prosper. Our Oil depandancy is a Time Bomb with no real happy ending and the end of our Prosperity.
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Earth
True! in the Late Teens there was this guy who took a Ford and placed it on Stage, he had everyone come up to the car and inspect it for any hidden Fuel tanks or fuel supplies. When everyone was satisfied there was no fuel hidden anywhere, he attached a tank, filled it with WATER and added a large Tablet, something like the Old FAB TABS, into the tank, after a few minutes of allowing the Tab to desolve in the Water filled tank, he started the engine and it ran fine. He claimed the tab was made from Peat and Sod and some other stuff and that the recipe was so simple, no one would ever find it.
Rumor had it that the guy who invented the Tab was killed on his way to Washington to achieve a Patent on his invention, Furthur rumors said it was American Standard Oil People who killed him.
In the Mid to late 80s there was two guys in Florida who took a (Hamms ??) Diesel Engine, did $600 worth of modifications to it and then drove to Washington D.C. on $1.65 worth of Diesel Fuel. Ford Motor company called them while they were sitting in front of a large Committe and no one has heard another thing about it. I watched it on a 10 foot dish, long before there was Scrambling and the NEWS covered it for several days.
I just tried to do a google search on any of the experiments and there is not a word, that I am able to find.
Note; I understand when you add acceleration, braking, passing, hauling etc, a vehicle designed for incredible MPG will drop dramatically. If you want Torque you will pay to move. I have sat for hours in 10 mile long traffic jams, I have wondered all to often how much fuel was burned, Nationwide for poor timing of construction. Pa. started to do a lot of Night construction.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis
You make it sound as if Black Slavery and White Americans is the ONLY Slave issue.
The American Indian has suffered slavery, massacres and sport shooting from Blacks and Whites. We grew up playing Cowboys and Indians and not Slaves and Slaves Owners. Yet even to this day, it is the Blacks who scream for pity and special attention and no one even asks where the Native American is or the Chinese American who toiled just as hard as any Black. Here in Vermont the poor Italians (White) were imported and used in the Quarries because of their Skills in sculpture.
There are only Three Human Groups, Cacausoid, Mongoloid and Negroid. Members of each group have been slaves for members of the other group over the centuries, the American White and Black were NOT the only case, it seems to be the only one that dwells decade after decade.
I agree 100% with your point "Our nation has no unity of purpose because our national identity is slpintered among ethnic faultlines" but do not agree with your very last statement. Many countries did the same thing and for many hundreds of years longer and do not dwell on it as we do.
Christopher Columbus was responible for tens of thousands of Native American Deaths and countless thousands were brought back to Spain, Portugal and other parts of Europe to be used as slaves.
Aztecs, Incas and Mayans would use captives as slaves and then as sacrfices.
Some countries would impale their captives by the hundreds along traveled roads to send messages. They would capture and breed the woman, enslave the children, use the men as slaves to row their war ships or entertain them in the arenas.
Slavery is a common word amongst every single nationality and members of every race have been a slave. Americans allow people to keep reminding them. We have had no slaves for well over 140 years and you would think it ended just last week.
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Mississippi - state of mind
Denis
There are Blacks in every country of Europe and they were slaves in about every country of Europe. You can tell a Greek from a Roman, a Turk from a Greek, etc etc. I can tell a Chinese from a Japanese or Korean. Cultural evidence of slavery still exsists in European countries, but War was among most every country there and at one time or another, every country ahd been at war with another. Here in the States our faults are more focused. We aren't surrounded by 50 countries that make up our history, our history is much more limited, much easily focused on. It isn't a maze of confusion as it would be with England, France, Spain or so many other coutnries.
I think Americans allow themselves to be victims of rumor and accusations. They deligantly snap to attention when accused and admit wrong and pay penalties. I see this with no other country.
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